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| User Info | The Lie Of "High-Frequency Trading" Liquidity in forum [Ticker] | |||
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Genesis Posts: 71432 Incept: 2007-06-26
KD^2
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http://market-ticker.org/archives/1366-T....
---------- "The monetary base in ALL modern monetary systems is the sum of unencumbered assets against which one is both WILLING AND ABLE to borrow." - Me
2009-08-24 11:14:10
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Asimov Posts: 26716 Incept: 2007-08-26
east tennessee
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THANK YOU! This is what I've said over and over here lately. Volume != liquitidy. My example wasn't nearly as good as yours, now I have somewhere to point people to. Thanks again! ---------- It's justifiably immoral to try to deal in a moral fashion with an immoral entity. If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
2009-08-24 11:20:05
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Stockbrokeher Posts: 154 Incept: 2007-06-28
South Carolina
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How can you tell the difference?
---------- "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." ~~Thomas Jefferson
2009-08-24 11:26:10
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Asimov Posts: 26716 Incept: 2007-08-26
east tennessee
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Stock: As a retail investor, you can't. You can look for hints... Like 5 defunct companies being 30% of the volume of the entire equities markets. Something's just not passing the smell test there. Or a company with the impressive worthlessness shown by AIG having it's entire float traded back and forth 3 days in one week.
---------- It's justifiably immoral to try to deal in a moral fashion with an immoral entity. If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
2009-08-24 11:29:28
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Newbtrader Posts: 3261 Incept: 2007-08-24
Bubbleville, VA Online
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Great point Gen.. So, that leads to the next question of.. how can someone truly determine actual liquidity? I guess the answer is retail traders can't, correct? Institutional trading desks perhaps can w/ more sophisticated metrics/data available to them, but retail traders don't have access to this data. Of course, all the HFT/momentum trading is "dangerous" in the sense that it can essentially look like there's substantially more liquidity than really exists (which makes any "real" support underneath the market very questionable). Oh boy.. I shudder to think of what's gonna happen when the computers determine the top is in.. ---------- "So try and figure this **** out. Catholic men and jewish women, no hats. Catholic women and jewish men, hats. Somebody's got the whole thing totally ****ing backwards." -George Carlin Last modified:
2009-08-24 11:31:12 by newbtrader
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Genesis Posts: 71432 Incept: 2007-06-26
KD^2
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You can't. But this is where the rocketshots come from in the market. The problem is that the rocket shots are cheered but the exact opposite happens when a downdraft gets going too - THERE IS NO BID UNDER THE MARKET EITHER! This practice is EXTRAORDINARILY dangerous as the floor can LITERALLY disappear without warning, and there is no accurate way to detect the difference between a REAL bid and a SHAM bid that is a reflection off some HFT guy with only 1,000 shares even though he's "representing" 10x that any on both sides at any given point in time! ---------- "The monetary base in ALL modern monetary systems is the sum of unencumbered assets against which one is both WILLING AND ABLE to borrow." - Me
2009-08-24 11:33:05
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Tsberts Posts: 1809 Incept: 2008-02-05
Minnesota Online
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I hesitate to even comment, as my question/observation is insanely bearish: Doesn't this HFT-driven volume actually destabilize the market, in that if it is ever turned off, it generates an instantaneous "no bid" collapse with insanely low demand, and next to no volume? [edit: Anwered above ^^] ---------- Photoguy was an optimist. In Soviet Russia, the banks are run by the politicians. Last modified:
2009-08-24 11:35:29 by tsberts
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Risingcream Posts: 2547 Incept: 2007-09-07
Online
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This is what you get when you lure all the smart honest people out of science and technology into the corruptive finance sector.
---------- Civilization...ancient and wicked. --Subotai The trees in Siberia are miles apart, that is why the dogs are so fast. -- Bob Hope
2009-08-24 11:46:02
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Megatoxic Posts: 31 Incept: 2009-08-05
usa
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So basically, HFT is just the latest form of "leverage," the very instrument that caused the crash in the first place. Smart is not the same thing as wise.
2009-08-24 11:48:30
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Etz3l Posts: 9103 Incept: 2007-06-26
Online
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Even more disturbing is the arrogance of these crooks,Darth Blankfein wrote..We take seriously our roles as a liquidity provider and allocator of capital and the effect they have on the efficient functioning of markets... ---------- Treating the symptoms of financial corruption isn’t the same as removing the causes.
2009-08-24 11:53:14
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Risingcream Posts: 2547 Incept: 2007-09-07
Online
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All crooks are highly arrogant until they are in jail.
---------- Civilization...ancient and wicked. --Subotai The trees in Siberia are miles apart, that is why the dogs are so fast. -- Bob Hope
2009-08-24 11:55:55
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Az Posts: 1659 Incept: 2008-09-22
Looking down the Rabbit Hole
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HFT has produced a stock market based in carnival shell game just waiting for their mark to join in the sting. Stock price no longer is based in earnings, etc. Wall street has become a rigged casino, with barkers on financial news networks crooning to the crowd to come into the tent for the big rip off. Over simplified in description, and sad to say, but true. ---------- Whistleblowers R my heros
2009-08-24 11:56:16
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Blackswan Posts: 3602 Incept: 2007-11-06
Ponzi Roller Coaster Online
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Nice. We have high frequency fraud trading propping up the fraud factories as insider selling dwarfs insider buying. Just wait for the Hang Seng margin calls as credit is reigned in. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2.... Global bank holidays anyone? Yeah collapse is off the table and KD is the Easter Bunny. Warm up the circuit breakers. Maybe there will be no corner to catch it will simply be catch the collapse. ----------
2009-08-24 11:59:48
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Megatoxic Posts: 31 Incept: 2009-08-05
usa
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Gen: I have a question for you. If HFT really works as an artificial signifier of volume, then why haven't the bankers pushed it to it's logical extreme? Meaning, why haven't they used HFT to raise volume to levels that would confirm the recent uptrend in equities?
2009-08-24 12:00:13
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Jdseese Posts: 84 Incept: 2009-02-22 Cleveland OH
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All I want to say is, Karl my admiration for you has doubled with your reference to FrobozzCo(c)
2009-08-24 12:00:38
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Ggecko Posts: 120 Incept: 2009-07-17 USA
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This is so absolutely true. I placed an order for 50,000 shares of a $6 stock, there was about 125,000 shares on the ask at the time. Stock trades about 7 million shares a day and already had traded 2 million shares by 10:15 so volume was up. I got filled 8,400 shares and price instantly went up. This is such BS it isn't funny.
2009-08-24 12:25:26
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Sushihorn Posts: 6084 Incept: 2007-10-22
Arlington, TX
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Karl Even an attempt to give the false appearance of activity in a stock is illegal. Of course laws aare only for the "little people" now. But here is an example of an individual doing exactly the same thing as GS and the outcome: Quote:2. Between January 2000 and April 2001, defendant Lee manipulated the securities of six companies -- whose securities ordinarily traded on the National Association of Securities Dealers Automated Quotation System ("NASDAQ") -- by using multiple nominee accounts to engage in wash sales and other manipulative conduct. http://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints.... ---------- http://jengafinance.blogspot.com/ Stop the looting. Start prosecuting. Do it soon. Or folks may start shooting.
2009-08-24 12:26:30
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Raster Posts: 1902 Incept: 2007-08-16
Rar!
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Hey KD - Is this line correct, or should it read "illegal"? HFT is nothing more than sophisticated (and in some cases legal) front-running ---------- ǝɹǝɥ ǝuo ןɐɯɹou ʎןuo ǝɥʇ ɯ,ı˙˙˙dn pǝʞɔnɟ ןןɐ ǝɹɐ sʎnƃ noʎ ![]()
2009-08-24 12:33:15
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Newbtrader Posts: 3261 Incept: 2007-08-24
Bubbleville, VA Online
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Nice post Sushi.. It's sad, but it's pretty clear these days that the laws don't apply to the "big boys" like you said. Funny how we never hear of big firms getting indicted of any wrongdoings, but they pick on little guys for making pennies (in comparison). Question though.. do the big firms actually trade shares back and forth to themselves, or do they just screw retail? It seems clear here that this guy was physically passing shares back and forth to himself, which is why it's a little more cut and dry in terms of "manipulation." ---------- "So try and figure this **** out. Catholic men and jewish women, no hats. Catholic women and jewish men, hats. Somebody's got the whole thing totally ****ing backwards." -George Carlin
2009-08-24 13:03:50
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Otiswild Posts: 1341 Incept: 2009-03-09
Teegeeack
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All my earnings have been eaten by GRUE :p
---------- It appears that the yard wolves has grown up. Are we finally finished with the colds dead winters?
2009-08-24 13:26:11
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Ulegundo Posts: 52 Incept: 2007-10-30
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I am trying to get my head around how Mutual Funds and the like work. Any help in this regard would be appreciated. My specific problem is with the idea that they wouldn’t want to over pay on the purchase of stock being purchased today. Would they not already have holdings in most companies that they are buying and are topping up to keep their target ratios in place. If that is the case it would seem that walking up the price would be in their interest due to the reprising of the existing holdings. TIA
2009-08-24 13:28:28
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Genesis Posts: 71432 Incept: 2007-06-26
KD^2
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Uleg, they don't care. You buy the mutual fund they are obligated by the terms of their prospectus to do whatever it says. If it says 'fully invested in X', that's what they will do - they will issue a MOC order for whatever "X" is for whatever is accumulated at the cutoff for that day. Mutual funds that employ stockpicking (as do some) have some discretion but even there most have a maximum cash hold they're allowed to accumulate. ---------- "The monetary base in ALL modern monetary systems is the sum of unencumbered assets against which one is both WILLING AND ABLE to borrow." - Me
2009-08-24 13:29:56
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Tomified Posts: 584 Incept: 2008-03-13
MO
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Since they've already ****d the shorts, the only thing that would stop a freefall would be the legion of dip buyers they have trained. I don't understand why that doesn't make the current bagholders a little uneasy.
2009-08-24 14:53:53
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Sushihorn Posts: 6084 Incept: 2007-10-22
Arlington, TX
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Newbtrader I doubt the black box is trading with itself. But when the boxes simply trade with each other, the effect is the same. Although to be fair, one should add the charge of Conspiracy if there are multiple entities involved in flipping any asset back and forth. We've seen mortgage fraud rings doing exactly the same thing. ---------- http://jengafinance.blogspot.com/ Stop the looting. Start prosecuting. Do it soon. Or folks may start shooting.
2009-08-24 16:01:08
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Idoc Posts: 136 Incept: 2007-11-12
sb
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Gen, i understand what you're saying and deep down i've always suspected this, BUT...can't the banks screw themselves walking a stock price up if true sellers put a limit sell order (or even a short) several notches above the current price and wait to be taken out? given the high insider selling recently, couldn't the banks have "walked" themselves pricewise up into a potential freefall vacuum?
2009-08-24 16:21:49
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